What is a Disciple-Making Leader? : S1E1

Glenn Underhill [00:00:21]: All right. Well, welcome to the disciple making leaders podcast. And my name is Glenn Underhill. I am the executive director of Disciple First Ministries. We are a ministry, really, that exists to help equip and empower ministry leaders to make and multiply disciples like Jesus. And I am so excited about this because this is a question that we talk a lot about, this whole idea of a disciple making leader. I have here with me our president, Craig Etheridge. So, Craig, you might want to pop up real quick. Hey. Oh, it's so good to hear your brother. Craig Etheredge [00:01:02]: It's great to hang out with you, man. And we get to hang out all the time, so this is fun. We're hanging out. We're chilling in the podcast. Man, you got the headphones on. You're looking so professional. Glenn Underhill [00:01:15]: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. You as well. Craig Etheredge [00:01:18]: Kudos to you. Glenn Underhill [00:01:19]: So I can't say enough how much the honor I feel being just around you. Craig Etheredge [00:01:25]: Oh, yeah, whatever. We're having a good time, though. What a great topic. This is stuff we eat, sleep, and breathe all the time. Glenn Underhill [00:01:35]: We talk about it all the time. Craig Etheredge [00:01:36]: Sure do. Glenn Underhill [00:01:37]: And this whole idea came out of this idea came from a lot of conversations that we've been having with pastors across the country as we've been training and we've been coaching and resourcing is this idea of, hey, this is all great, but the fact is I still need more leaders, right? And always you're always saying, well, hey, you're right. But the problem is it's not that you need more leaders. You need the right kinds of leaders. And so that really prompted you to start writing. And you wrote a book recently called The Disciple Making Leader. Craig Etheredge [00:02:13]: Yes. Glenn Underhill [00:02:13]: And so a lot of what we're going to be talking about comes from that content in the book. But I think really kind of really fleshing it out. And I know you're a practitioner in the church. I'm a practitioner in the church and just really trying to help understand what we're doing. So in this first podcast, really, we want to talk about what is a disciple making leader and how does this kind of leader really make all the difference in the church. And so let's just dive in, man. Craig Etheredge [00:02:44]: Let's do it. Let's go down the rabbit hole right. Glenn Underhill [00:02:47]: Down and jump right into it. Craig Etheredge [00:02:49]: Absolutely. Glenn Underhill [00:02:49]: One of the things you talk a lot about is this idea that the church in North America has unfortunately bought into this idea of the superstar leader. And I'd love to talk about that for just a minute because I think it's really important. So let's talk about this superstar leader and kind of the dark side to that. What's the shift? What do we got to do? Because the truth is, everything does rise and fall on leadership in the local church as well as in lots of different places. But what do we do? Why? How did we get there? Because we see it a lot. Craig Etheredge [00:03:33]: Yeah, we do. Our culture is fascinated with celebrity. Isn't that true in just about every area? Glenn Underhill [00:03:40]: Absolutely. Craig Etheredge [00:03:41]: It's all about the celebrity, whether it's entertainment industry, whether it's sports, whether it's politics, whatever we're infatuated, we gravitate to the celebrity leader, the charismatic leader, the talented person. They are the shiny object that everybody is moved toward and focused on. And the same thing is happening in the church. The church is really bought into this very same thing. I think this is really where the culture is invading the church more in the church invading the culture. And so we are fixated then on the celebrity pastor, the celebrity worship pastor, the celebrity youth guy, or whatever the case may be. This superstar. The superstar is the charismatic person. They're the talented person. They're great at drawing a crowd. They are winsome and charismatic in many ways and super talented in many ways. But there's a dark side to that. Glenn Underhill [00:04:37]: Yes, absolutely. Craig Etheredge [00:04:39]: And you and I have seen it. I think there are a lot of reasons, because a lot of people say, Craig, what's wrong? What's wrong with having a dynamic preacher, right? Or a great worship pastor? There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying that if you're talented, you're doing something wrong. That's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is that if your ministry is built on these superstars, then these superstars can rise your level of minister, raise your level of ministry. Right, to a certain degree. But when the superstar leaves, then you're right back down to where you were before. Right. Because you're looking for another superstar. There are only a few superstars out there. Right. I mean, like, in any sport. We were just talking about baseball the. Glenn Underhill [00:05:22]: Other day because it's opening day. Craig Etheredge [00:05:26]: Go Cubs. Yeah, that's right. And you think about how many people are down the farm leagues that are very capable, but they never hit the superstar status, even though they're very good at their game. You could say that about just about anything. And so when the superstar is there, man, everything's great, everything's wonderful, then the superstar leaves, and all of a sudden you got this big down again. Oh, no, we got to find us another superstar. So you end up hopping from superstar to superstar to even keep your ministry going. Once you go down that road, it's hard to sustain that long term. Right, right. Because they're not raising up people around them. Glenn Underhill [00:06:10]: No. Why is that? Craig Etheredge [00:06:15]: Because they're focused on their own talent. I've literally had people say, nobody can do what I do. Nobody has the magic dust that I. Glenn Underhill [00:06:22]: Have, or just the opposite sometimes happens. Is there's no way I can be like that person? Craig Etheredge [00:06:28]: Yeah. That's on the other side of it, right? Yeah, I can't be like them. They're super great at that. They're super talented. And so whatever the case may be, you're dependent only on this one person. They're what I call in the book. The genius with a thousand helpers. That comes from Jim Collins book. Great. But that happens in the church. And so you're now hopping from superstar to superstar. And if you sell your soul to that as a church leader, then you're never raising up people around you. You're just always waiting for the next one. So you're getting on church staffing.com and you're getting on and you're trying to find the superstar. That left one team to jump on your team. Right. And you're not growing your own leaders so long term, it really hurts you. You've seen this in your own ministry. Glenn Underhill [00:07:18]: Yes, absolutely. Craig Etheredge [00:07:19]: And how do you see that playing out? Glenn Underhill [00:07:21]: Well, you do you have an opening or there's something that comes up. You're going right to these sometimes to these headhunters and organizations or looking at from friends and things that you have down that you've had and trying to bring in something that's newer or fresher, but is very appealing. Right? Sure. And rather than just being focused on, hey, if we're really cultivating an intentional disciple making culture and really having a pipeline for moving people through that pathway and then ultimately up a pipeline, we should be really bringing them from within because they carry the DNA. Yes. And I've seen out of my own experience, what happens is oftentimes you make a hire that's a superstar and they don't carry the DNA. Everybody likes them, but ultimately you can impact the DNA in a very negative way and then you start having some poor decisions of your ministry, are going in the right directions, and other ones that are led by your superstars are going in a totally different direction than where you're ultimately wanting to go as a church. And I've seen it time and time again, and especially with churches that I'm coaching and consulting with is this dynamic. It happens a lot. Craig Etheredge [00:08:59]: And the superstar, not only is it difficult because they may bounce, and usually they do, they'll stay for a little while, then they're going to bounce on to the next thing. But many times, because they're not developing leaders, because they don't think anybody can do what they do, they tend to kind of become a kingdom to themselves. They're feeding their own thing. They're not really thinking about the whole team and can very easily twist off and can't even turn against the leadership of the church because they're just mostly focused on their department or their thing or their personality, their following, and not necessarily the health of the whole church as a whole. And I think that can be very. Glenn Underhill [00:09:42]: Dangerous as well, because we start thinking about just my particular area, not the mission as a whole. Craig Etheredge [00:09:51]: Right. And people see a superstar and they go, well, I can never get to that. So it almost suppresses people from joining up and being a part, whereas the other kind of leader is going to aggregate more people around them. So I guess my point is that we're so given to celebrity and trying to land these superstars. We're not really raising up the cadre of leaders and filling the pipeline that you're talking about from within. From within our churches are not being very effective in raising up the next generation of leaders. Glenn Underhill [00:10:24]: And isn't it interesting when you look at the life of Jesus and let's go back to Jesus, because this is where it all I mean, Jesus did not call superstars, in a sense, to fall. I mean, they were just ordinary, everyday, average fishermen and zealots, I guess, and others that he called to himself. But there wasn't a superstar that I can think of on that team. Craig Etheredge [00:10:52]: No, you're exactly right. In fact, we go to some churches and they have these massive icons of the apostles. Right, right. I think they would be blown away if they actually saw that, because these guys were actually passed over. You know, that from the preschool, they would learn the basics of the Torah. Then if they really had intellectual acumen or academic prowess, they could move to the next level. But if you were around 15 or so and only a handful would be selected to follow a rabbi, everybody else goes back to work at their dad's job. And we know that Jesus went and picked these guys up that were working in their father's business. Not a single one of them was being trained to be a rabbi. Every one of these guys have been passed over. You think about that. He wasn't picking the pick of the litter here. Glenn Underhill [00:11:42]: Right. Craig Etheredge [00:11:42]: He was choosing the leftovers, the passed over ones to be his disciples. And I think when you fixate on the superstar, man, you're missing out on all these great leaders. They have tremendous potential. Glenn Underhill [00:11:56]: Yeah. And that's why I always like to go back to Jesus and say, what was Jesus really doing? How did he approach it? What was he doing? And you do not see that in Jesus's model at all, picking superstars. He just was going after people who really were available and faithful and teachable and responsive. And then he began to raise them up. And then because they were spirit empowered, the spirit did it in them and through them, and it changed the world. So let's even take a little bit this a little bit further, so we know that there's a real danger in this superstar mentality and even going after the superstar. So if you were to define a disciple making leader, what is a really good definition of a disciple making leader? Craig Etheredge [00:12:50]: Yeah, well, that's very important. So here it is. A disciple making leader is one who leads out of the overflow of his walk with Christ and intentionally invests in others to produce genuine disciples and ministry leaders who will multiply the movement. Okay, so that's kind of a pregnant statement. There's a lot of pieces to it. Glenn Underhill [00:13:10]: Yeah, absolutely. But there's some very key pieces in it. Craig Etheredge [00:13:13]: Very key pieces. For example, he leads out of the overflow. This disciple making leader is walking with God personally and leads out of the overflow of their own dynamic growing walk with God. And you would think, Glenn, you'd think that's every pastor, right? Glenn Underhill [00:13:30]: Right. Craig Etheredge [00:13:31]: But you and I or every minister, but it's not. Glenn Underhill [00:13:34]: It's not. Craig Etheredge [00:13:36]: Why do you think that's the case? Glenn Underhill [00:13:38]: Well, I think in some sense it's the tyranny of the urgent. Right. I mean, I've got a lot of activity. I've got a lot of religious activity going on. I've got sermons to write, I got funerals to prepare or weddings to do or counseling appointments, or I've got Wednesday night Bible studies. I've got all these different things going on. And even our laypeople feel the same. And we have all these pressures pushing in our family obligations. And so sometimes out of just the reality of life, because it's not a pattern or a habit in our life, we neglect the very thing that we need the most. I was just thinking about Jesus when those last few hours of his life he comes back and reminds these guys that he's getting ready to launch as the leaders of the movement to say, apart from me, you can do nothing. That word remain in me. Right. Let me bring you back to the quintessential piece. It starts with remaining in me, abiding in me, whatever translation you might be using. But it's so key. And I know in my own life I was always told to read the Bible. I was always told to pray. I was told to do a lot of things, and I tried, but I failed at it miserably. And it wasn't until someone came along in my life and just then began to say, let me show you how to do that. And that really took my spiritual growth and development to a whole nother level, because then I began to learn how to develop habits, practices and principles in my life. That ultimately was a game changer for me. Craig Etheredge [00:15:25]: Yeah. In fact, I was just sitting in an ordination examination last night with this new candidate guys going in ministry, and we talked a lot about the vital importance of being in God's word. Not for another Bible study, not for leadership training, not for a sermon, but just for yourself, to feed on the word of God and to walk intimately and to know Jesus deeply, personally and intimately. This is the core of ministry. And many times I can get really good at singing or producing or leading or speaking or whatever the case may be. How many times do you and I know we could call names of guys that on the platform are stellar, but in the prayer closet, in their quiet moments, they're eroding on the inside. And so what we're saying is a disciple making leader, first and foremost, is someone who is a disciple who's walking deeply with Jesus, drinking from the well of Jesus, abiding in Jesus on a regular basis and have the overflow of that. Now he's going to do the next thing, which is to intentionally invest in others, to produce disciples and leaders. So now this person is very focused on other people, all right? They're developing, they're investing. And when I say investing, I'm not just talking about volunteer appreciation. Right. That's important, but that's not what I'm talking about. Glenn Underhill [00:16:53]: No. Yeah. Or even investing. And again, do we need to be investing in leadership development? Absolutely. Because the latter part of Jesus, the last six months of his ministry, was focused on leadership development. Not so much on the disciple making piece, but on the development piece of their leadership. But I think yes, absolutely. Investing our life in a few. I mean, oftentimes we talk about Paul and his teaching and Jesus and his teaching. But if you really look deep into their life, what you see are two men that were focused on investing their life in a handful of people who then would go on and reproduce that in others and then those in others, and then others and others, and so on and so forth. Craig Etheredge [00:17:42]: Yeah. I was saying just recently when you and I were talking about the Apostle Paul, in his last letter, in his last moments of his last letter, he's listing off 21 names of his guys. Yeah, these are the ones that are going to carry on. He knows he's going to die and he's at peace. He said, I've run my race. I've kept the faith. Because he knows that those he discipled are going to carry on the work. And I wonder if those listening to this podcast, if your ministry was done today, would your influence continue through the lives of others or would it just be done? And if it's a superstar leader, it's over. What you gave, you gave. Nobody else can do what you do. Your season is done. But if you're a disciple making leader, you're investing intentionally in the lives of others. And now they are carrying the torch. Glenn Underhill [00:18:32]: That's right. Craig Etheredge [00:18:33]: And disciple making leaders works on that. They're fixated on that. They're constantly filling their pipeline with leaders. They're training and developing not only as leaders, but as followers of Jesus. And they're aggregating these people around them that can multiply the work of the church. And that's really the last thing, is they intentionally invest in others who will multiply the movement. A disciple making leader is going to always have people around them that they're developing and you do a good job of this. You're always investing in others. And there are people on our staff that you took as lay people and developed them and now they're multiplying. And that's what a disciple making leader does and that's what we really, really need. Glenn Underhill [00:19:17]: It's interesting. The man that really vested a lot in you and invested a lot in me used to always say this to me. I'm sure he said it to you a lot as well. But he was always saying, glenn, your focus should never be just on making disciples. Jerry say this all the time. You should be vested in making disciple makers. Craig Etheredge [00:19:44]: Yeah. In fact, he said if I could do twelve of those in my lifetime yeah. Then he said I would be very successful. And you remember we were thinking, gosh, you're shooting pretty low, you're way low. Glenn Underhill [00:19:57]: That's right. What's wrong with you? Dream big, right? Craig Etheredge [00:20:01]: Go big or go home. Glenn Underhill [00:20:02]: But I think about the wisdom of him and his life and how he poured into us a lot and I think about that often is I don't want to just make disciples, Lord. I want to be about the business of making disciple makers who will change the world. Because they're bought into this idea and know how to not only bought into it, but then they know how to and are out doing it. They're out doing the very same thing and they're replicating their lives in the lives of others. And if God were to only give me twelve but I knew those twelve, then they're twelve and those twelve were to carry on for a lifetime, I would go in great peace to heaven knowing that God's doing a kingdom movement thing in the lives of others. Craig Etheredge [00:20:58]: You know, Glenn, I think about a very secular example of this is like coaching, right? You have some really great coaches but then you have other coaches that have a coaching tree and they raise up other coaches that raise up other coaches and we celebrate that coach that has this coaching tree. Right? In fact, they'll even ask, well, where are you in the coaching tree of so and so? You know? And and there there's some value in that. But yet we have church leaders that don't understand that. Glenn Underhill [00:21:30]: And you know what's interesting is that some of those coaches that have these massive coaching trees are at some very small. They're not at these top huge, massive schools, right. But they're just doing their job and they're loving on their kids and pouring their life into them, raising them up, helping them to be good men and women. But then they're also raising up these coaches who go on to bigger and better programs, right? Craig Etheredge [00:22:01]: That's right. Glenn Underhill [00:22:02]: But they're content with just doing what they're doing because they understand the value of what it brings and the change that it brings. And I think that's got to be pretty satisfying. Craig Etheredge [00:22:18]: Oh, it has to be. And when they die, their influence still carries on absolutely through these other coaches and those that they coach and on and on and on. And that's what it is with the disciple making leader. They're so focused on investing in others spiritually and in leadership that they raise them up and they get great joy and satisfaction in seeing their wins and their accomplishments, not just their own. And that is a big pivot point. And I'm telling you, Glenn, you and I both know this, that they're not a whole lot of those guys, those disciple making. We need more disciple making leaders, not just relying on the next superstar to come into our Ministry. Glenn Underhill [00:23:03]: We've talked a lot about the superstar, and that's not really the model that we should be emulating. We've talked about what a disciple making leader is. We kind of defined it. So let's contrast between maybe like a superstar and a disciple making leader. Kind of compare and contrast a little bit for me here. Let's play this back and forth. Craig Etheredge [00:23:25]: So, like, a superstar really longs to be known. They really like the credit. They want people to pat them on the back. They want the attention. A disciple making leader really just wants to be faithful. They're not really that motivated by the attention that they get. And they may get some attention, but that's not their driving force. Another one is a superstar really focused on the results of their Ministry. But the disciple making leaders really focused on the relationships that they've developed and the people that they're cultivating and developing in their Ministry. Superstar gets real joy in their own accomplishments, but the disciple making leader really finds joy in the accomplishments of those that they've invested in. They're just so happy and proud of the people that they've invested in that are going on to do great things. The superstar wants to be served. The disciple making lear wants to serve others. The superstar is my Ministry very focused on what my deal is and how my Ministry is going. The disciple making leader is all about our Ministry and how we're doing this together and how am I benefiting everyone around me. And one more superstar, as we said earlier, their impact really dies with them. But the disciple making leader, their impact lives on in those that they've discipled and invested. So I think when you when you look at these two, you begin to sniff out, you know, and this is a superstar mentality or this is a disciple making leader mentality, and there are very two different kind of philosophies of ministry. Glenn Underhill [00:25:08]: Yeah, absolutely. Again, let's go back to Jesus. And as I look at him and I kind of watch as I kind of watch his life play out, jesus was anything but a superstar, and he should be right. And he should be. Craig Etheredge [00:25:29]: In fact, the musical says, Jesus Christ Superstar. Right? Yeah. And he was always, if anybody was going to be a superstar. Glenn Underhill [00:25:36]: And as his fame was even beginning, his popularity was building. He was often trying to move away from that. Right. But again, because of the fascinations of the crowd, hey, we want to try to whip all this in. And I think even the disciples were like, hey, we've hit the jackpot, no doubt. But Jesus was always kind of re reminding them, that's not what I've come, that's not why we're here, and that's not at all what I'm trying to do. I think about Paul. I mean, yeah, a guy falls out of a window while Paul's teaching, I'm wondering how great a teacher he must have been. Craig Etheredge [00:26:22]: That gives me some comfort. Right. At least they're not falling out of the window. Glenn Underhill [00:26:27]: And I wonder, what dynamic preaching abilities did he have? It's probably a great expositor, but I know we're kind of playing around, but they don't seem like the most I think we sometimes maybe fashion them in our mind as these super charismatic. And I'm not saying Jesus didn't have charisma or that Paul maybe didn't have a little charisma, but I don't know if they would be what we were necessarily looking for just in the way they lived their lives, the way they went about their normal everyday business or how they promoted themselves. I see it very differently than that. But they went about and were very focused on a mission. Craig Etheredge [00:27:19]: Yes. Glenn Underhill [00:27:20]: And really about as we talked about that definition of a disciple making leader, that was who they were to perfection. Craig Etheredge [00:27:33]: And even when, like you said, when the crowds were pursuing them, you see Jesus moving away from them, you see Jesus evading that not trusting them. Here we are, that we're recording this just before Palm Sunday. And I think about all the people celebrating Jesus when he's coming down the Mount of Olives, celebrating him hosanna, and yet he's not entrusting himself to them. He's not going, yeah, it's all about me. He's so focused on sacrifice. He's so focused on the men that he's discipled invested in, even those last week, and then that last week. He spends an inordinate amount of time investing in his disciples, train them, preparing them. And he goes on to say in John 15 eight, by this my father's glorified that you bear much fruit and prove to be my disciples. He was focused on the multiplication through his disciples. And so to be pursuing the celebrity is not to follow Jesus. Right now you may gain some celebrity, people think you're amazing or a great preacher or whatever, but the disciple making leader is not really buying into that. They're thankful, but that's not what's driving them. Their driving focus is walking with Jesus and then investing in others to multiply. And if that's on Jesus mind, that should be on our mind. Glenn Underhill [00:28:58]: Yeah, I think of it in three words. They're focused on this idea of living as a disciple maker, really leading out a disciple making ministry, one that reflects what Jesus was doing, right? And then the idea of leveraging their influence in such a way to ignite movements of multiplication. Yes. Okay, so let me ask you one little last question here as we're kind of putting some time this all together. Why do you think disciple making leaders are needed today? If you could kind of pull it all together. We've been talking about it. We've been talking about superstar versus a disciple making leader. We defined a disciple making leader. If you could drill it down with me, Craig, in just a real simple but very profound way, like, you're really good at doing whatever, why do we need disciple making leaders? Craig Etheredge [00:30:02]: Yeah, that's so important. That question is so important. And I'll give you three statements. One is, our times demand it. Glenn we're living in very divisive culture. We're definitely in a post Christendom culture in our country. The Pandemic really exposed a lot of the lack of health in our churches. I remember I was in a think tank in Chicago just before the Pandemic, and they had us do this exercise of what would it be like if the church lost their tax exempt status and government really cracked down on churches? How would we survive? And we were sent out to brainstorm what to do. And I have to be honest with you, I was like, this is so lame. This exercise is so lame because this isn't really going to happen. That's never going to happen. And then, of course, the Pandemic hits, everything gets shut down, and it's a new day. And I remember back to what we put on that butcher paper when we were brainstorming what we would do. We said we would have to disciple enough leaders that they would know how to multiply themselves without us having to tell them how to do it. We would have to have an underground movement that is not dependent on facilities or programs or personalities, but on these leaders that have trained up to multiply themselves. That's the only way that would work. And I remember thinking when the Pandemic hit, we are woefully unprepared for that. The celebrity cannot prepare you for that. So moving forward, as our culture goes away, it's going the only way we're going to be able to multiply leaders and be able to do what we need to do in advancing the kingdom is through multiplying disciple making leaders. That's why we need our times really demand it. This is the future of ministry. The future is not going to be the celebrity. The future is going to be this unseen multiplying leaders that are undercover making this happen. I think another reason why is that the gospel really requires it for us to go the nations to make disciples among the nations requires multiple leaders and leaders that are able to multiply themselves. And we're. Not really creating that in our churches. And then lastly, and this is probably very simple, jesus commanded it. Let's get back to the Great Commission. Let's go back to standing on Mount Our Bell and giving that Great Commission to make disciples of all nations. To do that requires us to raise up leaders that can multiply disciple makers. Unless we focus on this, we will not get to it and the gospel will be restricted because we were unfaithful to do that very thing Jesus command us to do. Glenn Underhill [00:32:56]: Makes me think about the illustration that you and I use very frequently at a lot of our trainings. You bring in an apple. Craig Etheredge [00:33:04]: Yeah, that's right. Glenn Underhill [00:33:05]: And you have this apple and it's crisp and it's red and it's got water dripping down. It looks so good, right? I mean, it's tasty. But then you ask a question. What's the question that you ask? Craig Etheredge [00:33:16]: Yeah, I always ask them how many apples am I holding in my hand? Glenn Underhill [00:33:19]: And what's the typical response? Craig Etheredge [00:33:21]: Yeah, most of the time you go one duh. Right, whatever. They'll roll their eyes and then I'll just not respond and they'll be a little hush. And then you'll hear this. Oh, wait a minute. There are seeds in that apple, right? If you plant those seeds and you become multiple apple trees and then somebody will usually at the back of the room, say an infinity number of apples. And that's really true. This apple represents the potential in every one of us as leaders, right? We can consume the apple and it can be good. And we can just live our life for ourselves and let our ministry be about us and what we get from it. And we can kind of consume it as a way that we have identity in ourselves and then it's over. Or we can take those seeds of the gospel and we can plant them in disciples and we can encourage them to do the same thing. And we can have an orchard of apple trees that are constantly producing more and more and more leaders that will scatter all across our country, all around the world that this is what Jesus has called us to do. This is the ministry and this is the potential, latent potential in every leader and every disciple making leader. Glenn Underhill [00:34:45]: Yeah, I love that. So this first session of our podcast really was all about just setting up this idea that there has to be a change in the church. The church has unfortunately maybe focused on this idea or this common thought of, hey, we've got to raise up these really killer, charismatic, over the top, high octane, superstar leaders and really isn't what we see as the model that Jesus was really going after. And so we've talked a little bit about what a disciple making leader looks like. We've defined that. And so in our next several sessions, in our next several podcasts, we're going to really get down to the brass tax, kind of down into really into some of the practical ways this really begins to play out. And so, again, we just want to tell you how grateful we are. We hope this podcast has been super helpful and remind you that we do have a book. It's on our website. It's called The Disciple making Leader. We encourage you to go on and maybe purchase that book because we think that it really is a helpful tool, a helpful resource that will help you begin to think about how do we really develop disciple making leaders in our church ministry setting. So, Craig, thank you for your time today. It was great being with you. Don't say anything about the Cubs. Go Rangers. Craig Etheredge [00:36:25]: Hey, man, it's going to be great. It's going to be a great season. And, hey, thank you, Glenn, for this, man. What a joy to do this with you. Glenn Underhill [00:36:34]: Yeah. All right, well, we'll talk soon, my friend.